Lords of Creation 15 (OCC)

[Zaleramancer]

Philote wrote

Part of it was simply my character's nature. Gilgamesh would not be Gilgamesh if he did not have the weight to back up his actions. The other part was that I foresaw conflict. I knew it was going to happen, as soon as Gilgamesh's conflict with Hazet was over I started creating things simply so that I would not get steam rolled in the future.

Its not like I used Gilgamesh to try to take over the world or even invade another land.

Ok. I accept that.

I apologize for criticizing you at that point in time.

[Marvelous Miscreant]

I don't see anything wrong with that. It'll make the current mesh of creatures and beings more streamlined and give a clearer indication of relative power.

[Zaleramancer]

Phi doesn't like it because it forces him to alter his balance of power between his races.

Or something along those lines.

[Celadon's Penultimate]

Okay, so I'm back from my grandfather's pre-funeral gathering thingy. And I'm ready to weigh in. Care to give me a quick blow-by-blow of what I've missed since I've been away? I see that some decisions need deciding, and that there's some problems with mythical races and mundane ones. Anything in particular that needs to be added?

[Zaleramancer]

I want to add a category between Mortal and Mythical Being.

Mythical Races, like Hags or Veela.

Innately Magical, more powerful, less numerous. I gave a Pro-Con on the first page.

Zaleramancer wrote

Well.

Let's examine..

Mortal Races

Pros: Form Religious Orders, Become Heroes, Numerous

Cons: Individually Weak

Mythical Races

Pros: Individually Strong, Become Heroes

Cons: Less Numerous, Can't form Religious Orders

Mythical Being

Pros: Individually Very Strong

Cons: Rare, Can't form Religious Orders, Can't become Heroes.


Let's start from here and think of appropriate things.

I also suggested a method for raising portions of your Mundane Race to Mythical Status, like how the Amazons are a Mythical Tribe of Humans.

This would allow you to have both things like Dwarves or Durhians (Who follow more or less all the laws of physics) and things like Hags and Vampires (Who don't).

It also allows us to elevate Mythical Beings to a more powerful status without giving people who have a lot of them as puesdo-races to become beings of -ahem- godlike power.

In this tweak, an individual Mythical Being would be something capable of going toe-to-toe with a weak demi-god.

More of a call-back to myth, where in a mythical monster was generally a singular unique threat.

Phi doesn't want this. I'll allow him to explain his reasoning, since he knows it better than I do.

[Gentleman Vaultboy]

The best way of settling this is by having all of Phis races be on the same tier. Since Phis humans are super-adaptive magic generators, I could easily see them as a mythical race.

I think I have a solution. Phi, you said that you were going to be playing that Mercantile god as your Pantheon Leader, correct?

[Philote]

 Am I the only one having problems with certain parts of the rules or the only one other than Zale really trying to look into them? I do not mean to be butting heads so much, but I see all the problems and difficulties these big changes could make.

A big change like this means that the complete balance of power has to be reworked. Its no longer Race/Mythos/Servitor but some mix of Mundane/Mythical/Mythos/Servitor. If all my races are Mythical, would everyone's be? If Wulf and Marv's races turn out to be mundane, does that mean that they stand no chance against my people now? Would they have to create new races just to keep up or spend Miracles to create a specific class of Mythicals just so that their races were worth something? Would a Mundane Hero be as good as a Mythical Hero? Would it even make sense if they were? If Mythos are supposed to be some grand Spirit-Eating creatures, then what do the lesser Mythos become? Are they now races? Are they their own new tier that we have to add to the game?

[Celadon's Penultimate]

 Ah, then I haven't missed much.

[Zaleramancer]

I suggested that, but he responded with "That'll make all the Mundane Races irrelevant".

It would also force him to cut back on the population of his people.

And possibly introduce some sort of magical flaw. Though I'm sort of on the fence about those.

They seem like fun, but I don't want to make them mandatory.


Which I think he'll object strenuously to.

[Philote]

Yes, but not as my Pantheon Leader

[Philote]

The way that I tend to go is:

Rules -> Make things with rules and plan a lot -> Rules need/want to be changed -> Object and present ways to make Rules work so that I can keep my plan -> Give in and just rework everything if my suggestions do not work.

I'm getting close to the point where trying to hammer out the rules is more work than scrapping and reworking things.

[Philote]

I also tend to view the rules in two ways:

The rules are set:
Get the most out of the rules and create interesting things so that I can do more in the RP.

The rules are not set:
Make sure the rules are balanced so that people, including me, can not get away with creating over the top things.

That is why within the RP I'll create things like Pantheo, but while we are creating the rules I'll note that we should probably prevent that from happening.

[Gentleman Vaultboy]

Oh, well, ignore that then.

How about this. Races can have magic power, but they don't get to put little numbers next to them.

So it would be:

Fire

Instead of:

Fire (4)

This denotes a difference in power, to the point where the difference between the magical abilities of a race and a Mythos are easy to differentiate. A Mortal would never be able to compare to a goblin in taking objects apart, for example, because that is a goblins special power. He'd still be able to give the goblin a kicking, however. A dragonborn would never match the breath of a dragon, without being a hero maybe.

If you want a Mythical being to be a big threat, give it big threat powers. If you want it to be a slight threat, give it slight threat powers. If you want it to be a pest, give it pest powers. It can be as strong or as week as you like so long as you remember that in those things that have the numbers listed next to them the mortal; can never compare.

[Zaleramancer]

Individually, A Mythical Race is very powerful compared to a Mundane one.

A single Elf (From my example earlier) would be able to take out almost any single dwarf, assuming both of them are equally skilled warriors.

But they aren't up against a single dwarf. They're up a against six who are well trained in resisting mental influences, decked up the gills in iron and have been working as a single unit most of their lives.

Mundane Races have enough people to form groups with the specific purpose of fighting off the powerful Mythical Races.

Not to mention people can easily just raise certain groups among their own Mundane Races to the status of Mythical Race just to fight yours.

Remember the Rules. Cleverness. Counts.

Mundane/Mythical/Mythos/Servitor

None of them are some sort of combination of those.

A Mythical Hero would be someone on par with a Elvish King of Dwarves.

More powerful than a Mundane Hero, yes.

That's the point, Phi.

Lesser Mythos can either be reclassified as either Mythical Races, or we can add a tier for the Animalistic Counterparts of Mythical Races. It's no big deal.

[Zaleramancer]

You've officially lost me.

[Celadon's Penultimate]

Hm...well, then.

Seems like we need more to distinguish Mundane and Mythical Races.

Quick. What is a trait that all Mythical Races have in common? What is a trait that all Mundane Races have in common?

Maybe, Mundane Races can have abilities based solely on physiology, and be races that we've made up. Like things that don't actually exist in mythology (Durks, Draemar, Boquabians, etc).

Mythical Races can have abilities based in physiology and the supernatural, and be things that exist in RL mythology (Elves, Veelas, Hags). Whether or not their personalities and abilities match up with that mythology is irrelevant.

And any races not currently matching up to these standards can be edited in-story, following logical, believable conclusions.

Though, this is just a few suggestions. Let me know what you guys think.

[Zaleramancer]

They'll be to strong --> Suggest weaknesses

You can't make me retroactively at flaws!

This is what I'm getting here.

[Philote]

Fine. Gilgamesh's races would have to be Mythical, I'll just have to deal with a lower population I suppose, and the Fireflies would have to be Mundane then following these rules.

I like Vault's ideas for mythos, it means we would not have to rework things on the mythos side as well. Though I can only see how it would work out with my own mythos for now.

[Tsubasa & Wen Tien]

So, then, while I've been paying attention to the conversations, could you please type out the final consensus Zale into one post?

[Gentleman Vaultboy]

Which part lost you?