Debate!

[Celadon's Penultimate]

Who ever said simply because He said so? What kinda dope do you think a true Christian is? In case you had forgotten, I am a yes-man by NO means. A person who truly loves Christ (or even truly wants to know about Christ) will do study outside of just vigorous head-nodding at church. I came to Christ at seven (7) through PRAYER. My mom had just gotten done reading the story of Solomon to me (true story), and I remember it like it was yesterday.

He prayed for wisdom and knowledge and, above all understanding, and because Solomon prayed to God for those things instead of earthly riches and prosperity, God gave him THOSE things, AND earthly riches and prosperity! It said that no one on the Earth, then or in the future, would ever match the depths of Solomon's human wisdom. And I thought that was AMAZING. So I went back into my room, and prayed for the same. I wanted to be wise, and to have knowledge and understanding.

And I would never equate myself with someone so very deeply blessed as Solomon, but my faith in Christ has brought me very much happiness in my life, very much consolation in my times of sorrow, and very many blessings that I don't think I would have encountered in my life otherwise.

And not because I just listened and believed it without question. I went and tested the theory myself! And it worked! Not nearly to the extent of Solomon himself, but I hope my spark will eventually become a flame.

And I think I could guarantee similar results to anybody with a true desire to know the things of God.

[Zaleramancer]

I only disagree with the whole concept of Objective Morality because it makes it very easy for someone to become utterly convicted of their own rightness.

If you can't possibly believe you could be wrong.. dangerous things happen.

[Celadon's Penultimate]

Then you don't seem have a problem with Objective Morality, itself. You seem to have a problem with people who abuse the concept, for their own devices.

And that, I can agree with you on. I'm not sure if I've said this before, but I disagree with Conservatives on many social and political issues. We have similarities, but for the most part, how I go about Christianity and how they go about it are two vastly different things.

I don't have money for gas to go to church every Sunday, and so I go sometimes, but I often settle for prayer and Bible study at home. I don't always tithe to the church, but I give to the poor, if I can't smell the stench of alcohol on them. I'm not perfect morally, nor do I claim to be. I believe that it takes a lifetime of respectful (not cynical or accusatory) inquisition of God, exploration of God's commandments and Christ's teachings, and plenty of trial and experience to truly reach a place where one might be called righteous.

But, though I'm nowhere near where I think Jesus would have me be, doesn't mean I shouldn't try. And just because I can't see and touch Jesus Christ for myself, or disprove the Big Bang or Evolution beyond the shadow of a doubt, it doesn't mean that God doesn't exist, or isn't good.

Like I said before, I'm trying to see for myself. And that doesn't exclude the study of other world religions. But so far, Christianity makes the most sense to me, otherwise, I would try to convince my loved ones of the incorrectness of THEIR faith. Anyone I attempt to tell of the goodness of God, I approach with a truly earnest desire to help them. I'm not the type to cast aspersions on people, or try to gain some moral high-ground on someone. And I don't think ANY true Christian thinks like that.

[Philote]

Yeah, I'd have to agree, its pretty sad that a lot of people who call themselves Christians don't actually try to follow what they are supposed to be teaching. Zale's right, you shouldn't have to blindly follow some belief, especially when it comes from a human who could easily be flawed. The lucky thing is, you don't have to, you can get it right from the source. God will be willing to guide you and show you the true path is you're willy to ask/search for it (Big emphasis on the last part, it requires effort to take the steps towards God). If you try to follow God, he will show you what the Moral Obligations are, and not some human who is flawed.

This is without taking the Bible on blind faith, you can speak to God directly as if he were a person (Though I suggest doing so with respect ). Then you can use the Bible as a supplement to your knowledge of him. Once you gain a relationship with God, you can trust that the Bible is his Word and that he is good enough to keep it saying what he wants. Its only people who can't agree who are wrong and not God's Word.

[Celadon's Penultimate]

 Very well said.

[Zaleramancer]

That's not happening.

To do so would mean returning to crippling depression and a desire for oblivion.

[Celadon's Penultimate]

A crippling depression? A desire for oblivion? THAT'S what the existence or acknowledgement of God means to you? Well, perhaps, if I was a person who feels like God is an oppressive dictator, or a theocratic tyrant, or a great bullying monster, or nothing more than an insidious, criminal machination of minds plotting to subvert the masses, maybe I could see where you're coming from.

Others, on the other hand, would equate that outcome (depression, etc) to a life WITHOUT God. It all depends on your idea of Christ and Christianity. And of course if you think that Christ is unjust, and that Christianity is defined strictly by the institutional staples (like baptism and communion and going to church), and that not doing these things will condemn you, without question, to Hell, then I couldn't blame you for feeling the way you feel.

Fortunately, though, not everyone shares that same dismal, pessimistic perspective, or that experience. And some who do, are still able to look past people's mortal faults, and shortcomings and injustices, and pursue God despite it.

And, call me crazy, but I'm one of the people who believes that CHRIST defines Christianity, not the people who follow Him (or claim falsely to follow Him). He is just, regardless of if we are just enough to pursue after His example. Even the Bible says to let God be truth, and every man be a liar. Because WE make mistakes; PEOPLE make mistakes. We don't know everything. We can be biased, and prejudiced, and unrighteous, and sinful and otherwise just plain morally deficient.

But I acknowledge my faults, and look to a transcendent perfection outside of my mortal comprehension for the standard to hold myself to. I can't fully understand it, and I certainly could never do anything to ever deserve it, but I believe that Christ loves me, and you and everybody anyway, despite our faults, whether we like Him or not, whether we accept Him or not, or even whether we acknowledge His existence or presence or not. And He accepts us, when RACIST, SEXIST, BIGOTED, HOMOPHOBIC, JUDGMENTAL and otherwise HATEFUL people reject us.

THAT'S the God I serve. The All-Mighty Master, by whom Life (in this world AND the next) is justified. And despite my faults, or yours, or anybody else's, I believe that God (God the Father, Jesus Christ the Son and the Holy Spirit) is faultless, without blame, and worthy of all the praise.

And I'm sorry for whatever experience you've had with biased and dishonest Christians and pseudo-Christians in the past, but if you truly do believe in (and perhaps love) God, then you shouldn't let them be a hindrance to your pursuit of Him. And on the other hand, if you don't, then I apologize for wasting your time with my radical religious 'X-ian' babble.

[Zaleramancer]

I'm going by what I've read in the bible and what I was taught.

Those together do not end with a positive picture of God, for me.

During the final few years I was a christian, I would have committed suicide if I hadn't been so afraid of hell. I was full of depression and self-hatred. You ever wonder why I have so much low self-esteem issues? It's because I spent those years hating myself and calling myself an unworthy worm. I cried and I prayed and I begged and nothing happened.

When I stopped and became agnostic, I was happier than I had been in years.

So whenever anyone tells me how much I just need to open my heart and convert, all I think about is going back to that. I'm finally happy. I don't entirely hate myself anymore.

If you are right. If.. Christianity is right.. Then I'd drag myself to the nearest church and sit weeping and praying for God to be kind enough to let me cease to be after I die. I would continue that until I died from not eating or drinking.

I have never been more serious than I have now.

[Zaleramancer]

This is not an excuse for how I act towards you and other Christians. It is merely so that you can understand why.

You deserve to know.

[Celadon's Penultimate]

Well, like I said, I'm not here to convince you. If you think of God as being unjust, or as providing you no hope, then there's nothing I can say to change your mind. You have to see your perspective as truth, not my perspective.

I just know what I was taught, and what I've learned. And apparently, I learned something very different from what you did.

I learned that Jesus had no respect of persons, meaning He loves us all the same. And I learned that there is none righteous, no, not one, because we ALL fall short of His glory. But the righteousness of His testimonies is everlasting, and I believe that if He gives me understanding, I will live.

They're words I live by, and each of those things you can find in the same Bible that seems to depress and suppress and oppress you so.

And I only hope that my pursuit of Christ can come to show you that Christ is not a terrible tyrant, nor are Christians innately terrible people. We mean well, by our nature, and it's only when the word of Jesus Christ is perverted, that things go wrong in our ranks.

We're no more monsters than are Muslims or Jews or Catholics or agnostics or atheists. If I took from the examples of Muslim extremes, then I'd think they were all evil, wicked terrorists. And even if I took from the examples of Catholic extremes, I would think that they were all incredibly corrupt. But you often tend to get the true essence of a faith system from the least vocal proponents of that system. It is the ignorant who seek attention and validation; the wise seek love, peace, truth and justice. Regardless of religious faith.

[Philote]

God is Love and Life, he definitely doesn't want you to commit suicide or hate yourself. I'm not sure what experiences you've been through, but I know that God always wants what is best for you and will make it happen if you work with him.

You don't have to be perfect, in fact everybody is going to be far from it at times, but God can help you to grow to be better. God isn't promising to make everything perfect or easy if you become a Christian, in fact it is very likely that he will make things very hard, but it is all so that you can grow. If you're worried about life being hard, God doesn't give a person more than they can handle.

If anything, God is going to accept you for who you are, he did make you after all and he is going to want his creation to reach its fullest so there is no reason to think you're worthless just for being human like everyone else.

[Philote]

I'm your friend and I'll help you out in anyway that I can, I'm here if you need to talk or unload your worries, through the forum, email, or otherwise, even if it isn't to talk about Christianity and just to help your with feeling better about yourself.

[Zaleramancer]

I know what Wulf thinks about Homosexuality viewed through the lens of Christianity, but what about you?

[Celadon's Penultimate]

I understood this before you said it. Remember that email? And even before then, I had surmised that your perspective originated from experience.

But, regardless, there seems to be a lot about Christianity and Christians that you don't know. If you want to know, you have me and Phi. And if you don't mind coming clean with your perspective and your experiences (which you seem not to), then I will gladly do the same, to give you what you seem to need. A discussion (people talking WITH you), rather than a lecture (people talking AT you).

And if you don't mind me referring to the Bible from time to time, I think you'll find that the word of Christ is much more tolerant than people give us credit for.

[Philote]

I don't exactly approve of it, I think Man + Woman is what works. I also don't really have a great understanding of the mindset.

I've seen a lot of arguments that have said that the Bible doesn't even say Homosexuality is bad, which have honestly confused me and I'd have to do some research to figure things out. My current opinion is that where the Bible talks about relationships and what a person is supposed to do throughout one is where it shows that a Man and Woman are the correct setup.

Above all else though, I'm not going to condemn someone because of it. Everyone can be a Christian and have a relationship with God.

[Zaleramancer]

Well, here's my deal with this: If It's wrong, then I am going to hell automatically.

If it's wrong just to act out on that, I get to live a life of loneliness, devoid of any healthy romantic relationships.


You can see why I don't particularly like either of those options.

[Philote]

For the first statement, I can reassure you that it is wrong. If it was true nobody would make it into heaven, it is impossible to not do or even not feel something wrong ever. Even as a Christian, I can guarantee you that I will do something worthy of falling from grace, soon even. God has taken steps to take care of you for that though.

For the second statement, God has a way of working on people and definitely a way of taking care of them. What that means for you, I don't have a clue, I don't even understand the Homosexuality mindset like I've said, but it doesn't have to hold you back from being in a relationship with God.

[Zaleramancer]

What do you not understand?

I'm rather familiar with this sort of thing, so feel free to ask what confuses you.

[Philote]

I'm not going to tell you to stop, its not my place to, I'm not even going to tell you God's ruling on it, I'm not knowledgeable enough to pull that off.

God is Love, and if you have a strong relationship with him I can guarantee to the best of my knowledge that he will present a relationship for you. Heck, I'm even worried about getting a real relationship with somebody, I've had terrible luck with it so far, but there is more later in life than I can ever imagine and I'm sure God has a plan better than any plan I can have.

[Celadon's Penultimate]

Nothing sends you to hell automatically, except suicide, or some heinous act that elicits outright divine intervention from God Himself. If you were automatically damned, or damned beyond hope, I doubt God would let your life continue, as it would simply be wasting your time.

But in actually, although I doubt that God looks on homosexual affection with a smile, He also doesn't look on heterosexual fornication or adultery with a smile, and those people aren't automatically damned, either.

It's unknown for sure, but quite possible that God would with that the same way He views anything else as wrong. We get strikes. It's a pass-fail system, but one wrong doesn't outweigh any others. Homosexual people going about normal lives would be judged on the same scale of justice as heterosexual people living normal lives.

God has no respect of persons, and thus would not (and DOES not) see you as any worse, or any less than any straight person.