Debate!

[Celadon's Penultimate]

Personally, I don't believe in moral obligations. I don't think they exist, nor should they. Rather, I think that people should want to do good, instead of feeling like they have to do good. And as to what they perceive as good...who can decide that ultimately, in a secular society? Aside from laws to keep folks from killing one another (or depriving them of their inalienable rights), a secular society neither can, nor should try to tell other people what to do.

Moral government is only possible under a moral commonality; that is, people of similar morals.

Whether God exists or not, an atheist will not follow what he sees as principles primarily ascribed to a being he does not believe in. A Christian will not follow what he sees as primarily Muslim ideals. A Catholic will not disregard Catholic teachings, in preference to Baptist philosophy.

Aside from the basest principles and morals that exist in the collective unconscious, there is no moral obligation. It's why I think God gives us free will. You know as well as I, when God MANDATES or OBLIGATES something, it is DONE. No ifs, ands or buts, except your butt getting pwnt if you have the audacity to try to stand in His way.

The moral obligation comes from the heart, from the self, and from the community, and the standard-bearer of your faith; and that standard-bearer would be Yahweh for the Jews, Allah for the Muslims, The Holy Trinity (Father God, Son Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost/Spirit) for Christians--Catholic and Protestant, self-decided moral compass for atheists and agnostics, etc.

Results may vary.

[Philote]

The way he phrased it, Moral Obligations exist outside what humans choose to believe/follow. Something may be good or bad, but someone Wishing/Believing/Acting as if it was one of those doesn't change what it really is. You're right, people should want to do good, but there exists a Moral Obligation to do good regardless.

[Celadon's Penultimate]

Yes, that's true, but they have to have some idea of good, too. And that requires a philosophy. A motto or some other guiding set of morals, values and convictions. You have to know where you stand. And if there's a moral obligation, that implies that there is a sentient creating and judging force behind the existence of the universe. I personally can make sense of it, and accept that God has things that He commands of us, but not everyone sees it that way.

The previous statement I made was just really in light of a secular society. But, yeah, in the personal confines of my own faith, or in the confines of a church/religious institution, or in the confines of a theocracy, my belief would be that a moral obligation does exist.

I hope that doesn't sound contradictory, but the outlook must be formed in relation to what perspective you take on the essence of existence. If it is secular, then all morality is relative and subjective. If God (or some higher power) exists, then all morality is objective, because God is entirely objective (being Omniscient), and His Will is literally the good of the universe; thus, anything outside of it is immoral.

[Zaleramancer]

Objective Morality requires an outside force to make it so..

There's also the whole issue of who's. Everyone assumes their own moral system is the correct one, which leads to issues.

[Philote]

So do you believe Morality exists without some guide behind it?

[Zaleramancer]

I know that an Objective Morality requires something to make it so.

A reason is required.

[Celadon's Penultimate]

 Which is exactly what I just said.

[Philote]

Well, I believe that all of humanity has a single Objective Morality, they just differ in how they choose to follow it, correct or not, or if they choose to follow it at all.

[Celadon's Penultimate]

Subjective morality requires no more than the person to whom those values belong.

Objective morality would transcend a single person's feeling/

We can't decide on the truth or fallacy of an Objective Morality, until we can decide on the truth or fallacy of a higher power's existence, and until we can decide that we at least partially comprehend the implications of said higher power's presence or absence.

[Celadon's Penultimate]

I agree. But, again, we're Christians. We can debate, but it can't be proven empirically as fact or fiction, otherwise we prove empirically the existence or absence of a higher power (for us, the Godhead). That's why we resort to faith.

[Zaleramancer]

The main problems I have with Objective Morality is that whenever someone says they agree with it, they usually mean this:


MY MORAL SYSTEM IS CORRECT. EVERYONE ELSE IS WRONG. THAT IS ALL.

Which, to me, seems like a very strong assertion.

[Celadon's Penultimate]

Well, what would you do if you found out there was a God, and then He came straight face-to-face with you (or the equivalent that would not burn a mortal to a crisp in the presence of His Magnitude), and told you that those things were expected of you, as basically being a citizen of a Cosmos that He alone created, and therefore rightfully rules?

It's basically like the government setting forth laws. Except, it would be divine law.

[Philote]

I believe God's is. My own? Not so much, but I'm trying my best.

Not all Christians have it straight, but you can always trust God.

@Wulf: I wouldn't say its unprovable, there is always evidence if you're willing to look.

[Celadon's Penultimate]

Yes, evidence, but not proof. That's why we have faith.

Faith is the substance of things hoped for, and the evidence of things not seen, as you undoubtedly know.

And if somebody finds some incredibly complex mathematical or scientific formula to prove the existence of God empirically, all the better.

But I'm not really concerned with the thought of whether God's existence can be proven/disproved or not.

My only qualm is with the notion that somehow the objective morality is dictated by imperfect, mortal people, which is what Zale seems to think is the case being made. That's not the case being made. If morality is objective, then it comes from the Creator, which is why we pursue His intentions for our part in the destiny of the universe, as facilitated through faith.

Anything that strays from His Words would be (and I think IS) irrelevant, to be disregarded.

[Philote]

That is sort of what the speaker was talking about, you can't have Ethical Relativism.

[Zaleramancer]

That depends heavily on what it said and how it explained itself. Assuming it's not willing to simply make me think what it thinks..

I would be more than happy to follow whatever moral code it proffered, provided there are actual reasons behind it. Doing something simply because anything told you to do so -even God- is foolish. We would not have minds and free will if we were meant to be automatons.

[Zaleramancer]

You're wrong.

I understand completely that you think your moral code comes straight from above. I simply think that's incorrect.

Regardless of the existence of God, I find someone claiming they know what He thinks to be the height of arrogance.

All you have to go on is what humans think and the words of a two-thousand-year old book. A book that has, no doubt, been changed at some point. Even if you're optimistic enough to think that no one added to it, there is still the gradual wear and tear of so many translations and rewrites.

With only this to go on, as well as whatever spiritual revelations, you look me in the eye and tell me that you know what is ultimately Right or Wrong? Forgive me for holding reservations.

[Celadon's Penultimate]

If 'it' were willing to assume control of your mind, 'it' would have done so, by now. Or worse, 'it' would simply never have allowed any beings to come into existence who would ever think to oppose 'it'.

And if doing something simply because anything told you to do so -even God- is foolish, then call me a fool. My parents tell me to do things all the time, and I know their intentions are good. Likewise, I trust that the designer of time and fate and all the essence of reality would have at least a teeny, tiny bit more sense than me, what with all past, present and future being inherently known to Him, and being able to sense the Butterfly Effect down to the last butterfly, and all that. If He has the answers, and the universe is rightfully His, and would otherwise never even have existed without Him, then who am I (or who are you) to easily follow the rules of a mortal establishment, like a country, but not laws of the one who made such ethical establishment possible?

[Celadon's Penultimate]

 Who said it would be ultimately right? If we knew the perfect system, like I said, this whole mess would have been solved by now, and anyone who strayed from it would be empirically a fool. Whether there was irrefutable proof for God's existence or absence.

The thought is not trying to 'win' or 'compete' to see whose view is right, among people. I personally desire to know what's right, to be pleasing to what divine power may be. And I believe that divine power is Jesus Christ. In all honesty, if I make it to Heaven and see that atheists or Hindus or Muslims or Buddhists or even cultists made it there alongside me, why should I give a flying flip? I'm not living my life for other people, to be impressive to them, or superior to them, or above them. And no true Christian SHOULD be living their life for that purpose.

I try to live my life to please what being I believe created and rightfully owns this Cosmos, and who I believe is concerned with my life and well-being, and yours, and would be, even if neither of us had ever come to know Him personally in our lifetimes. It would be stupid of me to tell you that I know, or can prove that I'm empirically right. And I thought you knew me better by now to assume I would think such a thing.

I don't adhere to the Christian RELIGION. The Christian RELIGION is fundamentally flawed, and bigoted, and strict, turning the love and teachings and justice and forgiveness of God into exclusive institutions. Its worship starts and stops on Sunday, with no thought of Him any day before or after. And it seeks to be right in the eyes of PEOPLE, with no thought that God already knows the goodness or wickedness of the heart.

No. I adhere to the Christian FAITH, where my knowledge of what I believe are moral teachings STARTS with my parents and family members, but CONTINUES with my personal prayers and my personal struggles and my personal journey to pursue His Love and Justice and Righteousness and Truth as best I know how, to apply to my own life, and hopefully be a positive influence in the lives of others.

[Zaleramancer]

We have free will. Do you want to uses yours to mindlessly agree with someone? I want to know why someone wants me to do something. Humans are smarter than sometimes given credit for.

That's all I ask. He would have a good argument. It would likely be very satisfactory; then, knowing the reasoning behind the moral code, I would follow it with more dedication than I would simply because He said to do so.