What if the Roman Empire never fell?

[Celadon's Penultimate]

They would've cheered if he was just put in prison. Either way, they just wanted him out of their lives, to the point he would not be a threat.

And besides. That's still off the point of the Romans...

(Hate the say this in a topic by ALEX, but) BACK ON TOPIC.

Let me put my two cence in this discussion.

Shadowulf 1 I think you are making things black and white.

Real life isn't only black and white their are multiple grey areas in between.

Also you are thinking of ancient rome from a modern day perspective but that is simply not effective because they wern't from the modern day.

Think of it this way rome was the most advanced civilization of their time they had things their neighbors could only dream of running water, roads, effective army, filtered water, advanced engineering for their time, advanced science for their time. Everybody else they know of could not even comprehend it so after they conquared rome we entered the dark ages setting back development for thousands of years.

Also think of something else this way, the roman empire conquared countries yes but who in their time and for thousands of years didn't after all every country back thin conquared and for thousands of years every contriey aimed to conquar and expand as much as possible until about 100 years ago when we became advanced enough scientificly and culturely to stop so in the modern day we don't do that anymore.

Also think of something else this way, yes back then they had slaves but who didn't back then in fact every civilization in the world back then kept slaves yes even the indians and for thousands of years later everybody still kept slaves yes even the united states of amarica kept slaves until abraham lincoln decided to stop it and slavery finaly ended after the civil war. So it took thousands of years of develepment and maturation for people to relize they didn't have to keep slaves and that slavery was wrong in fact even after slavery ended it still took decades for most people to see everybody as equal.

Also thing of something else this way, yes their government had coruption but what government dosen't in face even thousands of years even though their were some good leaders their was always some corruption but rome managed to deal with it reletivly well for their time. In fact even the curent government of the united states has corruption it just isn't as bad as it was thousands of years ago. I don't dout the magority of our politicies care more about getting re elected and staying in power than they do about the country in fact that was how we got in so much debt in the first place our politictions spent more money than we had keeping the people satisfied so they could get re elected and stay in power. Though overtime the corruption in governments became less and becamed contained their is still coruption.

So shadwolf1 things became clearer after you try to think of things from their perspective and try to walk a mile in their shues.

time to get back on topic.

I say like the countries that came after them the romans would largely remain like they were for a number of years but overtime as they became more mature and their knowledge improved they would still be an empire but they would be different and better.

I say they would be a thousand years more advanced than us and would have explored the universe by now, cured disease by now and if they advanced realy fast they would have reached the singularity by now and become transhuman. In fact I think with them due to them being so advanced they would be more super human than human and with their amazing capabilities and advanced knowledge if we ever traveled to their universe we would be unable to comprehend them.

Cultury I can not say much but I think though they would still have emperiors and nobles things would be more equal and it would be hard though not imposible for them to become a higher class and possibly become nobles themselfs. I think slavery would be non existent because they would see the benifit of having more educated people. Though I think the people would be assimulated into the roman culture and become more roman than they're former culture. I also think slavery will be replaced by advanced robotits because robots can do more, do more for long peariods of time and only require mantaince and accational upgrades and not much else so they would be more effective than human workers.

I see roman conquest continueing and I see them eventualy conquaring the world and with their advanced technology eventualy traveling the universe and teriforming planets, mineing asteriods ect. so they would expand to the stars in fact I see them eventual not being limited only to earth.

What is your opionion on my answers?

I think we can only make asumptions because we lack the knowledge to understand or comprehend something that is thousands of years more advanced than us. After all we can barely make accurate predications 50 or even 20 years ahead of us so we will naturaly have a hard time predicting how a civilization that is thousands of years more advanced than us. In fact scientests say we can not make acurate predications at all for things that far ahead but we can at least try and make assumptions of how it might be.

[Celadon's Penultimate]

So I'm not understanding why you brought this topic up...

What, to school people on being more open-minded or something?

I mean, if you want to say that we have to walk a mile in their shoes, we can never walk a mile in their shoes, because none of us are Ancient Romans. We don't know how or what they thought, we don't know the language they spoke, and we don't know anything beyond what we piece together from what they left behind after the FALL of Rome.

Likewise, we don't know their feelings about religion, race relations, slavery, government, philosophy or anything else...

Moreover, since I'm being so black and white, and there are numerous gray areas, then how can ANY of us adequately propose something that is probable for the rule of the Ancient Romans in the modern day? NONE of us would know, because there are so many random factors that could cause things to go so much differently from what ANY of us propose.

We may not be ancient romans but most of their culture is not unknown to us.

You can find pretty much all you need to make a pretty accurate guess in a world history book.

In fact I have read multiple books about the ancient rome and I find if you actualy research it you can know enough to walk a mile in their shues after all historians do it all the time.

If you wan't to know enough to walk a mile in their shues do some research, ask your history teacher, visut your local library, use the internet ect.

I find if you bother to research ancient rome you can learn enough to walk a mile in their shues.

If you don't wan't to research it you can simply watch history channel after all they have had numerous specials about ancient rome.

Please don't say we don't know enough to walk a mile in their shues until you actualy do the research.

I for one have done lots of research on ancient rome.

Also making quesses about ways things would be if something haden't happened is not that new or difficult it is a subject called alternate history historians and authors do it all the time.

I did not make this fourm to cause a debate about this topic or ancient rome. I made it so people could answer questions about how things would be, discuss the answers, and post their own answers and oppinions.

Shadowulf1 I think you should take your own advice and read the rules because even though you say arguments like these are against the rules you constantly start them so you must not be following the rules.

I for one am not trying to argue I am simply posting my opinion and discussing it.

Shadowulf1 their is a difference between argueing and discussion. I made this fourm for people to post their opinions of the topic, answer questions and discuss it if they wan't to. Knowbody started argueing until you started argueing.

I think it would be the best for all of us if we simply ended the arguement and got back on topic.

[Zaleramancer]

He is kind of right about advancement. Without the fall of rome, the dark ages would not have happened.

I do see them using robotics to replace slavery though. An advanced robot is more effective at manual labor. Even if they ignored the whole ethical issue behind slavery to begin with.

[Celadon's Penultimate]

You believe what you want.

If you think I'm somehow less informed than you on the issue of the Ancients, then you can believe that all you like. I've been studying both their mythology and their culture since I was 10 years old, and have not stopped since then.

I'm no more uninformed than anyone else. However, we are only people, and directly cannot perceive the past. We can try to piece it together as best we can, but we're still working on cases like the JonBenet Ramsey murder, and Jack the Ripper murders, so don't tell me that I need to do research. I research, and research can only get you so far. It won't get you EVERY answer, nor should it. And I'm out of grade school, in college, so I don't NEED any teacher telling me what I can look up on my own, thank you very much.

So if you want to call into question my intellect, my ethics or any other matter of my character, please feel free, and we can go at it, no problem. I'm sure of who I am, and its not this jerk that people on here occasionally have the audacity to make me out to be.

I'm a fair person, but if you approach me with this asinine condescending attitude, like you're going to school me on how to be more open-minded, or chastise me like a little child for not seeing your perspective, then I will not stand for it. Nor will you get away with patronizing me, or looking down your nose at me as though you have some right to judge my cognitive process. You are in no way superior to me; we are ALL just taking a guess. And we all have a right to guess different from others.

Have respect for my opinion like I have respect for yours, and things will go along swimmingly. But if you can't agree to disagree without being rude, or smug or arrogant, then we will continue to argue, rather than debate.

[Celadon's Penultimate]

Oh, really? Well, how exactly would they have come to the conclusion to not have human labor? Through chance? Luck? Probability?

It certainly wouldn't be because of any stroke of human decency.

Not EVERYBODY believed in slavery, but those who DID were in power, and had the muscle to back it up.

It's just like the days of segregation in America. Not EVERYBODY in America thought blacks were subhuman, but the powerful people did, and as a result, it was frowned upon to date or marry interracial for YEARS after segregation was outlawed.

[Zaleramancer]

For doing repetitive things for long periods of time, Robots are always better. They can function for long periods of time without the need for rest or food.

Doing the same thing over and over and over and over...


Doing anything that requires some degree of complex decision making is something humans are better at.

[Zaleramancer]

If it helps, Think of this not as a "Let's carefully consider what would have happened".

Think of it as creating an alternative universe where the roman empire did not fall. Consider what would be interesting for a story or a world, as apposed to the realistic.

[Celadon's Penultimate]

Yes, however, they had yet to think of anything close to a working Robot.

Robotics didn't come up as an object of fascination beyond the realm of alchemical homunculi until DaVinci.

[Celadon's Penultimate]

 OH...so basically, rather than thinking about it from a logical standpoint, let's approach it pseudoscientifically, borderline sci-fi or fantasy genre?

Why didn't you say so?

I mean, in that case, you guys are totally right about all that stuff you said before.

I was thinking of doing the same thing with a different societal event, so I guess I could brainstorm some stuff of that sort.

[Zaleramancer]

I was thinking more along the lines of industrial robots.

Think http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Service_robot

Basically, roman robots would be used to do jobs more cheaply than slave/payed labor.

A robot that can do self-maintenance only requires a power supply and the occasional techie examining it. They can be housed easily when not needed and don't need money to be spent on them when not in use.

[Zaleramancer]

But of course.

We would never get anywhere with logic.

[Celadon's Penultimate]

Meh, I suppose anything's possible.

It could get more advanced and abandon the old ways, or even incorporate the old ways into their advancements...who knows? Who can say?

I think I've said my part in this thread...

[Celadon's Penultimate]

What? I never said ABANDON logic. I just did my best to paraphrase what YOU said, which sounded like an imagination exercise rather than attempt to actually speculate based on your current knowledge.

[Zaleramancer]

You're killing this entire mental exercise with that kind of attitude.

[Celadon's Penultimate]

Right you are...back to LaLa Land.

I mean, ANY race could eventually get to hovercars and other Atlantean inventions, given the time and necessary amount of environmental, societal and racial interaction.

[Zaleramancer]

Yes. That's what I said.

I can't even make a joke now?

[Celadon's Penultimate]

 And who's to say I was not joking as well?

I fail to see the point of this thread other than to debate or discuss. And Alex won't even let me do THAT, because perhaps I sound too harsh for my type of argument to be allowed.

Hence my giving up on contributing any actual thoughts here...

We can't ever TRULY walk in the Romans' sandals, so I don't know what's he expects of this conversation other than the speculation we've been putting forth. We're allowed to disagree, but somehow my opinion is offensive to him. So he won't have to worry about me putting forth my thoughts on the matter beyond ambiguous possibility.

He wants gray area?...He's got it.

[Zaleramancer]

No.

They would still probably keep slaves. As a status symbol to show how rich they were or to preform domestic tasks.