New Beginning (cont'd)

[Zaleramancer]

Does someone need a hug?

[Celadon's Penultimate]

I never said a person's religious views define them, I was saying that intolerance goes both ways. I mean if you think about it, the person you show in that picture is not even a good example of a Christian. Why would a Christian pray that ANYBODY die? Answer: they wouldn't. No matter how evil, it's not up to us to decide who deserves punishment or who doesn't. And yet, an atheist believes that there is NO God, no devil, no anything beyond the realm of the physical world.

Whether we're like the Christian missionaries risking their lives in Africa everyday to bring the word of God to those who will accept it, or those crazy yahoos claiming falsely that they come in the name of God; a extremist atheist is not so far off from a normal atheist in how they view and treat people who accept and worship God (or a god, goddess, gods, goddesses, idols, etc.). One of them just denies the existence of a God nicer than the other.

[Celadon's Penultimate]

You can tell who's an extremist Christian or not. Can you tell who's an extreme atheist (besides Bill Maher)?

[jester_of_god]

......................humanity itself personified into a human form would be a rash stupid idiot capable of brief insight on only incredibly rare occasions.

[Zaleramancer]

I never said it was. I think that those people are about as far as you can get from the entire purpose of Christianity.


But, how can you say I never said a person's religious views define them then say extremist atheist is not so far off from a normal one.


Aren't you doing just that?


(And don't worry so much jester. I'm not angry. It's more academic interest.)

[Celadon's Penultimate]

No, how could you say that they are SO different when it comes to their religious beliefs? I'm not talking about personality-wise, I'm talking about the beliefs they hold when it comes to religion/spirituality.

An atheist is an atheist is an atheist. You can only be a few types of atheist when it comes to beliefs...How many different spins can you put on "There is no God, there is no Devil, there is no afterlife"?

With religions at least, you at least have some belief that defines what you are in the realm of spirituality:

Primary deity: Allah (Muslim)
Primary deity: Jesus Christ (Christian)
Primary deity: Vishnu (Hinduism)

etc. etc.

[jester_of_god]

don't forget about the Great AETHEISMO.

[Zaleramancer]

Actually it's Vishnu, Shiva and Brahma. :/


So? Just because they don't believe in a deity doesn't automatically mean they all have the same views. Most Atheists were at some point religious, and I would imagine they keep at least some of the moral/ethical codes from that religion.

[Celadon's Penultimate]

Ha. Ha ha. Ha.

[Celadon's Penultimate]

I'm aware of the Hindu deities.

But as far as atheism goes, I doubt they would maintain any of the defining characteristics of the religion they left, or any religion at all. Otherwise, they wouldn't be atheist, they'd just be spiritual religious-nonconformists...

To truly be an atheist, one must believe that there is no such thing as divinity, and as such religion and religious practice are either useless, or have no power, or are not meant for them, or a combo of the three. Moral standards? Yes. Even a Satanist can be called moral in some way or another; that wasn't the point I was trying to make. They can pretty much agree on what happens after you die, who you have to account to, and what meaning one has in this life.

[Zaleramancer]

And this is bad because?

[Celadon's Penultimate]

To them it's not. To Christians, it's basically the equivalent of basting yourself in a nice turkey sauce and jumping into the oven WAITING for a monster to come eat you.

If God exists (which I believe He does, otherwise I wouldn't even be entertaining this conversation), and His words are true (which I believe they are), then atheists and many other folks are in mortal peril, due to their own sins, temptations, crimes, etc. etc.

I mean, think about it. My way, the worst that could happen is God turns out to not exist. No harm, no foul, and I don't even find out about it because my soul is nonexistent and my body's just a limp pile of decaying junk in the ground. But if the ATHEISTS turn out to be wrong, then everlasting fire and damnation and torment and ruin and remorse and agony and defeat (That's called Pascal's Principle). And you said it yourself, many atheists started out as theists, so it's impossible that they've NEVER heard of Jesus Christ before (God says this Himself). That means they have no excuse for not turning to Him.

THAT'S why evangelists and such try so hard to get people to turn to Jesus Christ so hard. We WANT people to join in on the Heavenly rewards that await the believers.

What's the purpose of an atheist telling you there is no God? Not to give you hope, or make you feel better (unless you're the kind of person who fears/hates/dislikes divine punishment and judgment); when he tries to tell a theist there is no God, he has no good intentions in mind, and there's no way you could convince me otherwise.

[Zaleramancer]

But love brought from the fear of punishment is not what God desires. He wants you to love and serve him freely. Correct?



Also, I would like to point out why they would feel the need to join a religion in order to save them from the dangers of said religion.

[Celadon's Penultimate]

How can you love Him by fear? The only fear the Lord wants us to have for Him is reverence...respect. He doesn't tell you to fear Him in the mortal sense, and even goes so far as to say that fear is not OF God. He wants people to at least be open to the possibility of a God, and not have such a hard heart to feel "I'll believe it when I see it." God is not ABOUT proof and hard fact and science. Understanding of these things come LATER. God only wants us to TRY to seek Him.

I mean, for example, you personally cannot see the purpose behind a sentence to Hellfire for something so seemingly minor as suicide. Well, the Bible tells me (I'm paraphrasing) that suicide is a sin, because only God decides when we are born and when we die.

Similarly, why Hell at all? Why does it exist? Well, if you believe in no God, how could you ever find out about it, let alone the purpose it serves to punish the wicked; that it was never intended for us, but for the Devil after he tried to rebel against God before man was even CREATED. If you never knew that Adam and Eve disobeyed God and sinned in the Garden, and passed that sin onto their descendants (everybody) so that only belief in Christ could redeem them, then you would feel like Hellfire was an unjust punishment for ANY crime committed in a mortal world.

[Zaleramancer]

You did not answer my question.

Does God want you to worship him purely out of fear of hell?

[jester_of_god]

..................I'm going to go to bed before I say something that will go against my religion.

[Celadon's Penultimate]

No. You shouldn't. And that was never said to be the case. I had a friend who was atheist/agnostic once. She and I discussed like this for HOURS. Eventually she came to the Lord when she realized that all her misconceptions about Him were wrong, and that He is responsible for all the Good in her life, not the Bad.

Just because you don't automatically come to accept Christ, doesn't mean the thought isn't there. Even those who don't believe in a God should keep searching for the truth, just as they do for anything else.

[Zaleramancer]

Likewise for you.


May we each have mutual hopes that everyone finds happiness.


So.. Shall we stop before the stress kills jester?

[Celadon's Penultimate]

He's already gone to bed from my understanding.

[Myself]

Could we stop the religious debate? I thought we agreed not to do this.